And we're alive. Hey, Hey, Hey this is Yassin Shaar with my buddy here Patrick Riddle. Patrick, how are you? How are you doing buddy?

Doing great. It's good to be here, man.

Yeah, I'm excited to do this call, the reason, a lot of people here, maybe wondering like, what, what has us getting together? Like I was, we were talking about before we started this call, the reason I'm, I'm doing this goal and hopefully there will be a series of these interviews with other high-performers like yourself and the is because it's been hard for me to find podcasts to find blogs to find like Facebook groups. I mean, now we've got the reunion. Shout out to Matt and Ross for putting together a great group, but, there hasn't, there's not a lot of information out there about growing a successful real estate info business and coaching and SAS and service. Right. I've been working in this industry since 2013 and most of these conversations happen behind closed doors, right?

And you've got to pay 5,000, 20,000 to join in. And I don't have anything against that, but I think a lot of these masterminds are great. But for me, like I want to have these conversations without flying, like around all the time attending events and leaving my family behind. And I want to have these conversations in the open so we can invite the rest of like our peers, right. To join in on the conversation. So we can all learn from each other's experiences. And when I saw, you and, some of the few others like Rafa and a lot of these guys and Mike, right? In the industry getting recognized as two comma club award winners, I thought like, what a great way to get the conversation going. So technically you're the first guest on the show and I don't even have a name for the show yet, but, I'm honored to have you as the first guest here.

Nice. Well, glad, glad to be here. I'm looking forward to sharing some of the things that we're doing and some of the stuff is just working really well.

Beautiful. Yeah. So I mean, the plan is for these calls and interviews is all focused on growing your real estate info product coaching, service business rather than talking about like real estate investing. And I, I don't, I think there are a lot of podcasts out there and it shows like talking about private money and motivated sellers and all of that, but there's not much not many people talking about like drawing the actual coaching business and so I'm excited about this. So, so Patrick, why don't you tell us a little bit about your publishing model and what you've got going on right now.

Cool. Happy to. And I'll just give a brief snapshot of my background in the space. Mmm. When I first started out, I've always, when I first started learning about real estate investing, I just wanted to share it with others and teach it. And so I started a blog in 2008 and after just putting out a lot of good content and I started connecting with others in the space, people like JP Moses, Trevor mock Robert and I ended up going into business together and I was really good at recruiting private money in the real estate business. So that was the first product that we rolled out. It was called a private money blueprint. And pretty much created a product line around private money for a few years there. Ended up buying Trevor out of the company and he moved on and is destroying it with carrot.

But like, like I ended up like at first in this business, all the products and services that we sold were Patrick Riddle as real estate expert. And I kind of felt that several years ago that I wanted to shift the company and build something that wasn't based on me, the guru NX. And so I started I did my first publishing deal where one of my students at the time, Justin Wilma had a product idea. And we ended up putting together our first publish in our wholesaler. Is it? Yup. Yup. That's a problem. Our wholesaler and, that, that, that pretty much was just the beginning of our shift, to where we've come today, like 2016 15. I know that was 2014, I believe. And w w with Justin our, our real vision. I mean, he, he was wanting, he was investing and doing a lot there and wanted to get into the info business.

And so the vision was just really the front end product. We created the product, our, our, my company, awesome. REI handles the marketing, sales, fulfillment, support, financials, everything there. And then Justin was the expert and face behind the company. And there wasn't any real vision beyond that round, but we rolled out the product. It did great. Both for, for us and for Justin. A couple of years after that we basically took the same little model with Justin and stamped it out. Sean and Tracey Flanagan had more abandoned house secret and since doing that course with Justin to today we also tried a lot of different things. I mean, for a little while we had a new physical newsletter continuity program that we would fill. We jumped into software and we were developing new software and rolling them out and trying to grow them.

We in, in the, in the past since I got started, did a couple live events, sold a mastermind, did some, some group coaching, so have dabbled like an all bounds right service that can be sold to real estate investors and a little over a year ago or the prop price thoughts probably started about a year and a half ago about our publishing model and how we could tweak it to how we could shift it to really capitalize on the one thing that we've just done best in all of these years of being in this business, which is creating a sexy front end products. With, with, with great hooks, with other experts. And we, we, we, we had the vision of, of seeking out people to work with that already have an existing business that has great backend offers, webinar offers and coaching, whether it's events and, and we were like, man, if we just doubled down on like looking back over the last five or 10 years even and figuring out the one thing that we've done best we then a year ago just cut out all the other things that we were doing that weren't just rolling out high quality, converting front end products, stop selling and developing in house software and stop doing group coaching.

And like the vision for the new model too. Like our ultimate goal when we like basically partner up and work with a guru company is to be able to create a front end product that generates thousands and thousands of, of, of customers. So buyers to send to that. So and, and the ultimate goal is the way we test new front end products that roll out to is we first a male, our internal list and get it doing good estimated time. But once we get it done well enough, we'll ask an affiliate friend or two to help us test and hop on and promote it. If they get good results, roll it out to the affiliate network and then we start buying cold traffic. That's the ultimate goal. We want to be able to design front end products and we use VSL funnels in a front end product is usually a, the goal here is to create a customer, acquire a customer.

It's like less than a hundred bucks on, on the front end. And so our ultimate goal was to create front end products that we can scale on cold traffic and spend a ton of money and spin in a ton of money on cold traffic, just trying to create a guru Byerly that we can then pass off to the company to monetize through all their backend products. Ultimately we need as the, as the publisher of the front end, we need to keep as much revenue as possible. So with our, with our structure that we have now when we do a deal with the guru company is, is our company all some REI handles, , everything from the product development, the sales, fulfillment, media buying support, everything, everything from, from creating the product first but then from creating clicks all the way to creating a customer. When you do all that. And we don't pay out any of the front end revenue to the guru company, right? It's all about letting us create as many customers as possible. I mean in direct marketing, a customer acquisition, all you really want to do is just be able to get what you spent and then you profit on the backend.

Even like he's like a Gora publishing big goal into the reds for six months, right? They're there cause their CPA is like six months in the red because they know they've got a dialed-in back end and their customer lifetime value wake seed what they're paying upfront. So they're willing to like go into the hole for six months to acquire customers. So the customers, the most important thing you could have. So giving someone a customer is like that's a big deal. And it's amazing that you do it from, from click customer. That's like a dream come true.

True. Well and then we just want to hand that customer off to the guru company and let them figure out the best way to monetize the buyer leads their products and services that they offer. If they've got a sales floor, they're probably going straight to the sales floor. They've got a good voting weapon or, taking a sub hundred dollar buyer to a thousand dollar buyer and then maybe the coaching beyond that, however you might sell it isn't a great escalation sequence. Like, like, like per our new model, , we, we don't pay out on the front end so that we can ultimately scale the offer. You know, pay, be able to pay the most we can for a buyer lead and bring in as many customers as possible. And then on the backend sales, we get commissions on all the different backend sales that are created with a lead-in, in the, in the first, the first model of this that we rolled out was with Joe McCall last year.

Yeah. The products promoted the hook is how to earn income using Zillow without owning any properties. And ultimately the strategy this tall is lease options cause Jeff's a big options guy. But yeah, we, we, we've rolled that out with Joe and it's, it's been, it's been a big win. I mean we've, we've brought in probably over 6,000 customers now. Maybe more. We're spending like, like, through warm traffic through internal and affiliate traffic. Usually, our front end price is 97 bucks. Cold traffic. We test lower price points cause usually lower price points convert better. With the Z code, the winner was 37 bucks on the front end. All our upsell funnel is the exact same price point structure. But for cold traffic, we're charging 37 on the front end. And with that $30 VSL  Front end funnel, we're spending right around 50 grand a month right now between Google and Facebook. And we're almost, 

I mean we're pretty much our ROAS as is right around a hundred percent. On day zero on day zero, like day four or five, like when they'd gone into Ireland. Okay, so promo, we're a machine. I mean it's going well. Like that's, that's just looking at spinned in revenue. Beautiful for January is 113%. But what that doesn't account for refunds, which through cold traffic or hire them. And that doesn't account for, for our media buyer, retainer and commissions. And so we're, we're trying to do even better than that. We want to be at like one row as or something. So we're straight up just clear. 

And you're doing customer support, right? And you've got the fulfillment, you've got the servers, you've got new content creation, you've got employees and, video production and ad production and creative. And there is a lot of work cost involved in fulfilling on, on a front end offer. Not just the marketing, but the fulfilling, 

Well Ann Ann like, , you've got all the, , our staff and our support and our, , SIS films and all that. But, but like, once we start testing a new funnel, there are three areas that we're like, if it's looks like it's a winner that we're constantly working on, we're, we're sending traffic. So we're, we're hiring media buyers who specialize in traffic and then we're split testing and gathering data on the funnel to continually improve it. And then when our copywriters are iterating, iterating, iterating, , to try to improve things and like we're, we, we seriously leveled up our copywriting in media buying team. We have been over the last eight, 10 months and like since August I've probably hired eight different copywriters plus copy plus my, our CMO. Matt's pretty good with copy. And so the letters that we've gotten to, the ones that are winners that we're, we're doing well with. I mean, it's been a big team effort. It's not like, Oh, let me just go hire this one copywriter and sit back and wait for the letter. It's, it's it's been a lot, a lot of work, but the collaborative effort, like for some of our new funnels that we've rolled out, I've hired two copywriters out of the Gates to both write letters just so that we had two different things to test initially. 

If you look at the like 800 pound gorillas, at least Olsen in the old days, right? Like boardroom Phillips publishing right there. Highest paid contractors or people, right. Are copywriters. Yeah. In fact Marty Edeleston was down to his like last $3,000 or something, and he hired Jean Schwartz to ride the ad for boardroom. Right. And so instead of like, he didn't like go create a product that's like, it didn't have you had the idea for a newsletter, physical newsletter, which started boardroom. He didn't like to go create a product. He didn't like run an office. He didn't, he didn't do anything, but he did. He gave all of his money to gene Schwartz, which is right. Probably the, arguably , the best copywriter who ever lived who wrote breakthrough advertising. And he gave him all his money and of course that he bought the media, right. But he put all of his money, all the chips in it, paid gene, and he bought new ad space. I'm sorry, a space ad. And bam that that launched a multibillion dollar company. What boardroom? And if, I don't know if Brian Kurtz one of the most generous people I've ever met who's carrying on the legacy of boardroom boardroom and what they've done there. But copywriters meant how important the copywriter to the success of a front end offer. Patrick. Okay. 

It's well for first off, like if you will, one thing that I've, that I've learned over the last year is like, great copy won't help a mediocre offer. Like nothing, nothing, nothing will help a mediocre offer. So first you've got to make sure that you've got and, and offer that that that is new, that is positioned as a, as a new opportunity. It needs, it needs to be different, , it needs to, you need to have a pretty good grasp of what else is sold in the market. So that you can differentiate it and have some kind of unique mechanism to what makes new opportunities.

Yup. And difference. Yeah. You know, there are three, three things generally the why people don't buy a, you're either, , selling something that they don't want, right. That doesn't solve like heroin fire a problem or urgent need. Two, they don't trust you or trust your claims rights. Like, , they're calling BS on what you're saying, a three. They can get it anywhere else. Right? There is no unique mechanism there nothing different about it's a commodity. And number three, right is, is , having something different and unique is why a lot of offers just full flat make money, , make money in real estate without your credit stuff. Like, I've heard it, I've heard that before, I've heard it before.

Right? You got to come up with something unique. So, so tell me a little bit about, a little bit about like yeah, what makes a great offer converts and like how do you uncover what's unique about product because it's pretty, right? So what kind of, do you spend a lot of time research? So what, what, what does your process look like when you're crafting a front end offer? Yeah, it's been interesting with how, like with, with how many new offers we've created in the last year and a half. What, like at the end of 2018 we created an offer that we ended up not, not being able to do well with. And then last year we created three new front end offers and then we're, we're in the middle of one right now that we're sprinting to, to be ready by March 1st. And they're just in this last year and a half. I've, I've learned a lot with, with Joe McCall's offer, like the first thing that I did, like we, we pretty much wanted to create the three step Ascension within.

We knew he had his webinar that converts works good. And he had his $10,000 coaching. And what what, what price points is it the webinar? 1500. Okay, so 1500 than 10,000. Okay. Back then you just wanted to create that three step ladder. And so did he have a front end at the time? He's got a free plus shipping book offer. But but, but really like even if any company in our space has running offers have grown, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't never have too many. You can have too many front end offers and can have offers that we're creating. Like with guys, I mean they wouldn't never come up with without us. Like with Josie code that dove into his webinar, that's where I went for the source material to find an idea. And a lot of times I, we'll just try to splinter off one little piece of the bigger offer. And I'm like either either looking first at like a lead source, what's a sexy lead source that's used has been one way that we've, we've found ideas. Another way that we found ideas is like, could we package part of the process and still make it [inaudible].

Me and another thing just in the past months that I've really realized is not only diving into someone's source material to just comb through it all and, and look for the but also just going straight to the proof. Where is the proof? Like you can have and there's different types of proof. There's guru proof and then there's the credentials, right? Like ideally you got both in, you don't always have scenario, but ideally you have both. And ideally too, you've got past, present and ongoing proof. You know, if all you have is past proof you could, you can still make it work. But it's so much easier if you have guru and student proof past, present and ongoing because more and more in today's world, like people are just looking for any little way that they can be like, Nope, this guy's lying. That's not true. You know, they're just trying to poke a hole in it. And so having like proof on top of proof on top of proof is, is awesome for the marketer and copywriters to be able to go to work and write. They kind of copied the space. So

Gary Bencivenga says, you can't have enough proof, right? Like it's not about like, should I add five testimonials or, or 10 or is it's like the more proof you have in there, the better. And most of his control sales letters that lasted for years and years. He always almost always starts with proof, right? Like a quote or like a customer testimonial or he leaves like, , like a doctor , this X doctor discovered and MD and he's got these awards and Nobel prize and right. So he always led with proof because people are, as you said they're looking for a way to describe, not discredit to you, but to call BS, right on what you're saying, because not to believe you. There you go, right? They're looking for reason to mentally opt out and not believe you. And just click on that expert and then shut down and write a, or

They're like, that deal was from six months ago. It probably does. It's, I mean the more and more that's, that's the way it is. Well, let me mention this like with the product that we did with cam, Dunlap, Scott a company. Yeah, we rolled out last fall Josh Brown works with them and as a partner with cam, no, Josh is a close friend that lives in Charleston here and, and all of last year we were planning on doing a deal and I kept trying to figure out what the heck to make the product about and I was struggling. They, they had a new webinar offer coming out called trifecta, which is primarily software driven and diving in to their traffic to a webinar and looking for the product idea and just thinking about how to structure something. I, I struggled in and did it come up with an idea for months and months and months.

And then last summer at some point I was like, I mean their software is really cool. The motivated seller data feed and it's got all different kinds of types of leads. So I was trying to find like a sexy lead to pull out and build something around. I finally was like, yeah, where's the proof for cam? And it's with their funding, their transactional funding, they're closing deals all the time and they've got, I mean, and they know what the student made on the deal. They've got both HUD's they've and so then then also like with their traffic to a webinar, the sexiest new thing with that offer was the motivated Dell data feed software before that, years before the sexiest part of their webinar or in previous forums, a couple forums prior to that was their no fee funding transactional funding. They launched years ago.

And so I was like, man, what if, what if their traffic to webinar offer is the Ascension offer after purchase and what price points? What's that? What's the 1500? I think, but I was thinking since they're no fee funding is no longer like the sexiest driver of sales for that webinar, why don't we create a scaled down version of that that just gives them a piece of it and not the full thing. So, so what we ended up doing is we were like, okay, we want to create some kind of offer where we can use all of the proof of their transactional funding deals and we want to scale it down. Like on their webinar, they give access up to a million unlimited access of the use of that transactional funding for a year. So in our front and offer, we're like, all right, let's just give them one deal funding certificate for only up to $600,000 it'll still be the no, no fee, no interest, no points funding.

And on the front end we'll include that. So for less than a hundred dollars you can get a legit transactional funding deal through our offer funded without any interest or points. And so, so that as an offer is not an info product? Well, I mean, we just as it's one of the deliverables, we just call it a deal funding certificate that's good for your next transactional funding view. And like most transactional funding companies offer to fund for like 2% of the loan or something. Like we're giving it to them for less than a hundred bucks. Like we're legit doing one transactional funding deal for them. So, so talk about like you need a sexy offer. That's a pretty sexy, I didn't want it to be pigeonholed in funding. I didn't want it just be a funding offer. So we're like, well Cam's one of the biggest things he teaches on is vacant houses.

And we've, I've done a lot of test marketing in the past around those keywords and stuff and knew we could drop a ton of clicks. And so we're like, here's what we'll do. We'll wrap. They can houses around the funding so that we can, so that it will be a broader offer. So, so that won't be a fun, like nobody that buys their first real estate investing product, buys a funding product. They buy a how to make, , whatever. We wrapped so, so, so in essence, the course teaches how to find and flip vacant houses and gives you the funding you need for your next deal,

Dude. Brilliant. Yeah, because you can't force it the idea, right. It's just like, you gotta let it simmer. You know, we're, we're in the idea business like, , like, , people over at the Gore at sea, right. Or Mark Ford one of the founders of I go to, right? Like we're not in the info product business. We're in the idea business. You've got to come up with hot ideas, right? And you just, like you said, right. It's an old offer sitting on the shelf, not performing. You just took it or took a piece of it, right. Wrapped it with a new idea. And just now you're like selling a ton of it. That's, that's amazing dude. And it's a Testament to your willingness to just stay on it, right? Because a lot of people just like, ah, , no opportunity, but it, it just shows why probably, , probably you've got a lot of things going for you. That's why you're successful. But one of the things is probably because , you persevere and you just, right. You keep, you keep, you keep, , running a those ideas through your head to come up with something at the end of the day.

Well, and even, even when we,

Yeah,

Even when we have something working well, like I've been a lazy marketer in the past, you get a funnel doing well and then you don't touch it for a few years. You're like, Oh, let's just let it do its thing. Like with Zeke food right after we rolled it out, it was doing well with some tweaks and stuff. And I mean we look for the weakest parts of the funnel and iterate copy and tests. But then I hired a whole nother copywriter, Nathan juror widths to come in and just write a letter from scratch and he came in and wrote a killer and gave us a real solid bump on the front end and we were already doing well. And like, like for vacant house bank with that, with, with cam as the expert we, , we rolled it out internally and we're always testing, , and we usually, right, let me say this too, right? When we roll out a product, I'm always disappointed with the results. Like what day one, day one, I'm just like, am I an idiot? Does this even make sense? Like, do I know what I'm doing? Like I have all these questions, but then we go to work and we get it there. We look for the weakest parts of the funnel. Sometimes it's, , it's relatively small things to take something from. What the heck to man, this is exciting.

It's not about finding the right thing. It's about making the thing right through it. Duration. Experimentation, right? Yeah.

Oh yeah. It's, it really is. And what they can house bank right now, that VSL funnels doing well. We're probably around 1800 buyers. And we're, we're to the point where we, we just kind of push it out to our affiliate network and we're about to start buying cold traffic. We we just hired a media buyer specifically for YouTube. We've got a couple meeting's coming up where we're looking for somebody for Facebook and then but, but, but check this out. Like, so that funnel is doing well. The current messaging and hook and everything is really geared more to people already in real estate. And so we hired the most expensive copywriter I've ever hired. And for the first time we're, we're, if his comes the control, we'll, we'll pay a royalty as well. And I never paid royalty to a copywriter, but I've, it's been a two month process.

Like we hired a guy specifically to, to, to write a letter to appeal to the unaware prospect for full traffic for, , to appeal to any financial buyer. And in through the third variation that I just got back maybe Friday. When I saw it, I was like, Holy crap, this is good. And I've sent it by a few people and a few good marketers and their response is similar. I can't wait to test this thing, but I think, well, I, I don't even think anything because most of the time if I think something's going to crush bombs, you never know how the market every day lives. I'm super excited and yeah, it's just been, it's a lot just about testing. I'll, I'll test any, any copywriter, media buyer coming up. You know, we just want to continually improve our funnels, them

Love it. I want to jump into hiring copywriters and maybe talk a little bit about traffic and media buying. But before we jump off the offer topic I mean, , you, you've got a track record rolling out, , a slam dunk front end offers. Like, what do you see some of like the biggest mistakes people do when rolling out front end offers?

I mean a lot of people's copy either in their ads or on their, the first page of their funnel, whether it's a webinar registration page or a landing page or whatever. I mean I call it blah blah blah. Copy. It's the same thing you've heard a billion times. How does first house in X days or less without cash or credit? Cause I'm on come on. Like you got to come up with something unique and different, something, anything. So that's one of the things that stands out for sure.

Beautiful. What are some other mistakes you've seen with the way people were allowed the offers or position, , position to

By him, , by media. What are some of the other mistakes that you notice? I mean offer mistakes goes back to one thing I said earlier where like nothing, no, like fancy upsell funnel or, or a list copy is going to say the media for offer is let's say an offer that's just the same old thing or nothing special. Nothing different than what's what's already out there. Like, like, I think a big mistake too is what I did for many years, which was try out a lot of different things. You know, maybe I needed to do that different, , types of products and services to sell. Maybe I needed to do that. But when you're, when you're, Oh, we're selling this continuity program and then we're selling this software and then, Oh, let's do group coaching and try events and all over the board.

Like every one of those things is hard to, to, to, to really crack the code on, become a master, become an expert at it. And so I think that that we're seeing the success that we have over the last year and, and, and the success that we're about to see because of all the things we stopped doing. Wow. Specialization. Even even the difference between a VSL funnel and a webinar, like I don't have any confidence in our ability to create a crushing webinar, but, but, but with what we do now with our, with our front end product sub a hundred dollars VSL funnels, I've got all the confidence in the world that we can crush it. Beautiful, beautiful. It's, it's like, , beam fly, right? If you focus it on one point right, you, you, you'll, you'll have fire. But I tried to diffuse it, right? You'll never, you'll never, you'll never start a fire in.

Here's another mistake is not, not having like an Ascension ladder. Well, why is that important? Can you, can you like dig deeper? Well, because the name of the game is customer acquisition and just being able to recoup your spend in a reasonable amount of time to be able to bring a customer on. And then if you don't have good offers on the back end to then profit from. And it makes it really, really tough. And like for years, like we did really well with the Justin Wilma 10 hour wholesaler and the Sean Flanagan abandoned secrets. But there wasn't any other vision beyond that to ascend like the Justin Walmart buyers to $1,000 Justin Wilma to a $10,000. Just a product. You didn't have a business. Yeah, exactly. I mean we, we made it work for awhile just by really promoting , our inter other internal offers and affiliate offers.

But for a few years there, the profit of our company was pretty much all coming from our affiliate revenue that went through the bottom line. All of our front end funnels and what we were doing pretty much just paid for the business. And so fakery out a way to be able to have, , the, at least a three step ladder. I mean, the way that we do that now is by not doing any of that other stuff ourselves, but still being able to be compensated by it, by, by people we work with, people who have the offers that we can ascend their front end from them.

Yeah. And I'd love to talk about like what makes a great partner for you a little bit towards the end. So this is great. So when you're testing, when you roll out a new office, so you talked that, , thank you for sharing a lot about your process of like coming up with offers and how you go about it and what makes great offers. So, so how do you go about like testing a new offer? Like what signals, so you said you first roll it out to your internal list, then you go to your JV network and then you roll it out to cold traffic. So you'd like, so what are the signals? What are you looking for when you first roll it out to your customers? You know, do you have like a set of benchmarks they're looking for? Like how do whether like an offer is like, okay, let's try to, for affiliates or to go even photographic, what are, what are the,

Well, one thing to note is that internal list traffic really means nothing. Like you get stats and you can compare those to other internal stats, but it doesn't necessarily tell you how it's going to do to an affiliate list or, or other tracks.

So maybe I'm asking the obvious, but

I mean typically if somebody's got a relationship with their list and they roll out a product to their people, it's going to convert a lot better. Okay. Then any type of traffic, but, but we still like, like internally for our offers, I know the average amount of sales that we can bring in just from an email to, to, to a promotion and that's like, like, like revenue per email is a metric that I like to pay attention to. What, whether I'm promoting internal offers or affiliate offers. The, the metric that everybody wants to hear in the space is EPC, earnings per click. That doesn't really tell the whole story. If your revenue per email numbers, have a good, bad, excellent promotion and then when you mail any offer, that's the, that's the best way to compare to, to really compare it. I, I feel like I got a little off track. What was the question again?

No, no, that's good. That's good. Like how do , like when it's signed to like, when you have a successful offer, it's ready, like to scale.

Well, we'll like internally,

You know, we'll send an email to it. And for how long did you test it? Like internally do you like give it like a specific time? Like,

Like, like, like if we w we look across the funnel. So a typical funnel for us, like when we send the first email, we look at all the conversions across the funnel to, to, to judge kind of initially how it's doing. And we might, we might go live with a new offer and send an email and then the next morning and look at the results and then basically just press pause and say, Hey guys. Oh wow. Yeah, 1500 clicks, , this is what we're seeing and this is a limited small dataset. But, but this like, looking at the percentage of, , and we pretty much just look across the funnel. Like, if nobody took the upsell offer, we're like, Holy crap, we got to go to work.

So you roll out the entire [inaudible] funnel with the upsells down sells and everything. Just the core offer. You start with the core offer?

Well, when we go live, we've, we've got basically an MVP version of the entire funnel and our entire funnels look like a front end offer, an order form bump. Usually it's 27 bucks on the order form. And then we have an upsell, a down sell and a cross sell.

Hmm. So could you just want to maybe just run the send? So you're sending traffic to a VSL, is it typically it's a VSL or long form sale. Okay. VSL. And then it sends them to a checkout form. And that's typically sub 99, like 99 to $49 for long traffic. The front ends 97 is what we used to get 97 with a $27 bump. Any $7 order form ball. Beautiful. And then once they process their payment, it takes them to an upsell and a specific price point. The upsells that you typically start?

A lot of times we go with one 97. Sometimes we've gone with two 97, but, but we'll basically like we'll have a core offer for the upsell and a couple of bonuses. If people say no to it, we just take away a bonus and offer them the same thing for cheaper. That's our, that's our core up sell down sell structure. And then whether you say yes or no to the up sell or down sell, you'll see the final cross sell offer, which, which sometimes ranges from anywhere from 97 to two 97

For some hurting. So when you say cross sell, are you selling like a different promise? Like if you're doing likeZ , so what's the cross sell for? For these eco.

Okay. Z Z code. Like I w we like to have our front end product be a how to product in essence mostly. So that then the upsell offer is how to accomplish what you have to do and the front end product faster and easier. That could be a system, a software in the Z code. The front end product teaches them, , how to generate leads through Zillow that they can make money with without owning real estate. And then the upsell offer is actually an outsourcing system. So we're basically saying, Hey, the thing you just bought, you can hire somebody for $4 an hour to do all this crap for you. And that, that does pretty well. We've used webpage templates before, which is like a lead gen system and we've used softwares before that usually do, do well. Like if you teach a certain kind of lead source on the front end and then you have a software, they're automated, that's a really good secret.

So, so in the Z code funnel, the upsell offer is for instant outsourcing is what we call it, plus a couple of bonuses. We just take away a bonus and go from one 97 to 97 and sell them the same instant outsourcing plus minus one of the bonuses from the previous. And then the cross sell the final offer. We make it to everyone no matter what they said to the other cell balance is called instant accountability and it's basically an accountability system that says, Hey, if you're the kind of person that , sometimes you get real excited about stuff and then you don't follow through, here's a system that's going to hold you accountable to get the results you want from all the stuff you just bought. Okay. Interesting that that offer is something we made up and we put a little autoresponder system in place and have a process where when someone fulfills, they contact our support, they manually add them to the instant accountability system and then like it's a series of autoresponder messages that they're agreeing to respond to with what they did last week. What they need help really easy. Like, like honestly it doesn't convert that great. We haven't, maybe it's an awful problem, but with, with our cross sell in any funnel, we like to have something as a cross sell in addition, hyper buyers that say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, frenzy buy everything.

Yeah. But we're still may, maybe, maybe weekly and like we've stamped that out, that instant accountability offer into other funnels now cause it's just, it's easy to fill. It's easy to just toss something there. And we've tried to write a little bit of different copy. I don't know if copy can make it convert better or if more price testing, which we have tested different price points could work, but it's right now it's better than nothing because it, , it pulls in additional revenue and every like this is important. If you, if you want a front end funnel that that converts like your front end offer, an upsale must both crush. That's the only way you're ever going to see it. But all those other offers, the order form bump and the down sell and the cross sell, like they all add a little bit more, , the, the average order value for a customer in every, every bit matters. Yeah. Or maybe take that cross sell as a bum. Right. Maybe even tested like as part of the fulfillment that's part of the core offer. May, it may increase consumption, which could lead to higher conversion on the, on the back end. Right.

That that could be better than than in the up sell funnel. You're right, it could be a good, you don't associate the front end or just utilize somewhere else in the funnel. Yeah, go ahead. Usually our order form bump is, is a like if the guru has a book already then like with Joe, we used his wholesaling lease options book. We had, we had an alternate version created of it. And so that's the order form bump. Mmm. And what we've done, what we did with, with cam Dunlap w it was just pretty cool. We, we, we create like executive summaries, like kind of like cliff notes for our media writing programs. And what we did with those with cam is we created a physical book from those cliff notes, from those executive summaries that we already give them PDFs for course.

And ah, I wish I had that book to show right now. But , we, we created the book itself and it's a physical book. But it's been, it's been converting great like 40% of the front end buyers. Wow. That's killer. That's killer man. Okay. Your partners are fortunate to have you that you've worked so hard to, , bring them buyers and, , make sure that the you deliver them buyers on a silver platter. That's, that's amazing dude. Let me see if I can find the right. We're, we're the nerds here, nerding about this stuff. It's pretty cool.

We don't do much physical mail, but like when we send them the book Cam's offer, we send two little tickets to his next lab event. We send a little one page letter to get them on their traffic new webinar or like a welcome letter. It's a pretty cool little package. Beautiful. We make them look good, beautiful, beautiful, well done. And that's like, if people don't have a good front end experience, good product experience, there's no way they're going to upgrade. Right. If, if, if, if you don't deliver and over even deliver on the front end, you're just right. You're, you're killing that relationship. There is no way they're going to trust you. Like if you didn't deliver

It with $97, they won't trust you with 15, 10,000 or whatever that is on the backend

And, and with, and with, with our model, if, if we're not getting back in sales, then we're, we're screwed. We have to get, , we have to be able to send these front end buyers into their backend so that we get paid because the profits in the backend. [inaudible]

Yeah, totally. The, the connection is coming in and out. I dunno if I'm coming through for you. 

You are, you are mostly just a couple of times. It's, it's been a quick blip.

Okay. And I mean we're, we're coming towards the end here. Men. This, this has been amazing. I wish we had more time. Maybe, maybe we do a followup call here to, , I wanted to talk about copywriters. I wanted to talk about media buying. But unfortunately we're almost out of time here, so much to talk about. You're,

I was going to say there's one other loop you open that you said we would cover it in. And my mind is like, what was that? I can't remember, but what, well done. What good job with the open loop. Okay.

What I wanted to talk about is like how do the, your, your deals work, like , feel free to share whatever you're willing to share. But how does your publishing deals work? Like what does the arrangement look like? What kind of structures you put in place? Like who makes an ideal partner for you? So maybe, , a lot of the listeners we have here would be interested in either like maybe working with you or, , partnering up with a people who could deliver like a front end. And I'm not sure there is anyone else in the space does what you're doing, but why don't you tell us a little bit about how you center your deals?

Well, and, and that was it. You had, you had mentioned just, yeah, talking about who makes a good, who makes the good partner with us and, okay, awesome. Now, now my mind is more at ease that that loop is, is, is closed. Like we were looking for established guru businesses that are at least already doing millions in sales of their backend, of all of their products, whether, whether, whether they have a webinar or offers. Ideally they sell high ticket coaching. Ideally they have a sales floor, , that's ready for action. If not then hopefully they at least sell a lot of coaching at their live events. I mean we're, we're really looking for the type of companies that can take a buyer lead [inaudible] and monetize it, , through their products, services, coaching software, , pretty much everything they got.

Mmm. So if you're in, so if you, if you're a business that has really good offers like that and you've got good systems and processes and, and sales team to to really make the most of it that's, that's who we're looking for in as far as, as structure of the relationship. I mentioned earlier that I mean we, our product team goes, like, we basically on the product side and the marketing side of what we do, we make it to where all the guru has to do is show up. Like all they gotta do is show up and we've got, , from their source content, we've got the entire product outline built out and just handed to them on a silver platter to show up and teach the marketing side. Same thing with any, any audios, videos, whatever we might need. We just hand off fully done scripts that should need little to no editing.

Once we go live with a funnel, we're continually iterating, copy sending traffic, , with our media buyers and split testing to improve things when, when we've got a winner with, with the front end product and offer that we create while we work with, with the guru. My company, awesome. REI owns all rights to the product basically to market, sell and fulfill it. And we try to make it pretty easy to do business with us and to get out of business with us if any of us are not happy. So we do make it easy after a certain time period for either of us, just the publisher or the author to, to, to move on. And then we just simply shell the product on, on the backend. Like, so, so far the way each deal that we structure is different because different companies that we work with have different expense structures for their different products and services and stuff that they sell.

But, but at least a condom is standard. We have now as if someone's got a webinar offer, we do the, the typical 50, 50 split on webinar sales we'll do on software. We'll on a few deals. So far we've done 25% commissions on software and then coaching and height and whatever high ticket sales, whether it's service sales or consulting, coaching, sales that depends on a lot to do with the people that work with and their expense structure and what they can literally just afford to pay us. And, and for it still to be a win, win any company we work with needs to understand that our ultimate goal is to spend a ton of money and, and do everything we can to just recoup our spend up front so that we can all profit on the back end. So the companies we work with should want to pay us as much as possible, as much as they can because the, whoever who

We work with, who pays us the most back in commissions per buyer lead that we send them, that's who's going to get our a list resources, our rock star resources, copywriters, media buyers. And that's who we're ultimately going to be able to spend the most to acquire a customer. So that's who we're going to be able to scale far and wide on the interwebs with makes total sense. And I took off my BD because my bandwidth is a little bit. And so you, you, so are you saying you also like you pay the copywriters, you [inaudible]

Yeah, I mean currently like, and this is probably a past thing. So if you're listening to this at some point and we charge for what we do, we should already be charging. But in essence, once we put together a publisher deal with someone in the past, this is past tense. We haven't charged them anything upfront or anything per month. And we pay for everything that we have to with our product team and support and , everything but, but the hugest expenses that just go out the door, our copywriters that we're continually paying and our media buyers that we're paying. So we're, we're, we're, we've got a lot of expenses. That's why it's so important that we work with companies that know what to do when we hand them a buyer lead and can monetize them very well and pay us [inaudible].

That's beautiful, man. You're heading, you're handing, , your partners, customers for free. Well, technically, right. Without risk. Maybe, maybe not for free, but, but, , well, the underwear is the only thing

That the guru really has at risk in these past deals. And we'll probably charge in the future, like I said, but his time [inaudible] the time that they've had to show up to record the product and record the marketing. And even once we go live with our media buying, I mean, we're, we're sending over scripts to the guru to do videos or audios or whatever for us, it tests. But I mean, it's, it's, I mean, we're, we're handing out the, the toughest thing to do in direct marketing is to acquire a customer and be able to what you spend. And so we're, we're doing that for companies.

The name, the name of the game is, is customer acquisition. And , there's also invisible value, I guess, right? Because even if a, if a front end offer flops and you're exposing them to all of these affiliates, right? You're creating a buzz around their name you're right. Positioning them as an expert in their niche. People are looking, he directly translated to a sale, right? At least not, not, not immediately. But all of this buzz that you create for someone is also something that I think is critical here. Well so how would someone reach out to you, Patrick, if they want to learn more about potentially partnering up with you?

Email is probably best. It's, it's Patrick at awesome or [inaudible] dot com. I'm not always the best. Sorry. Huh?

Could you repeat that?

Yes, yes. Yeah. Patrick at awesome. Or [inaudible] dot com.

Beautiful. Beautiful. And for the connection issue here , I'm in, I'm in the Philippines right now, so you gotta take what you get. Patrick, this has been an awesome interview. And what a, what a what a first episode. I'm, I'm so honored to have you as our first guest and we're starting off this show with a bang because there is nothing more important than, , you can get all the leads in the world, right? But until someone votes with their wallets really, , I don't know what dollar value you can put on a lead that never pulls out a credit card from their wallet. So think this was the right kickoff for this show. And I'm, I'm so grateful to you, buddy, for being an open book here, a open book and answering all the questions and I'm looking forward to a future episodes that we could dive into more into maybe specific front ends and talk about copywriters. Then talk about media buying and especially with Facebook and , everything is changing and , they're changing their policies almost every day. And YouTube, right? That's the hot new channel. Youtube everyone is jumping on YouTube. So I'm, I'm excited to talk to you about all of these other topics in future episodes. Appreciate you buddy.

It it, yeah, it's a, it's a pleasure to be here. I love talking about what we've been talking about and it's probably obvious. I probably cut you off too many times and just black blabbed on for awhile when you, when you probably wanted to ask the questions. But it's been fun. I've been, I've enjoyed it. Thank you. I've, I told you this before we started recording, but I've kinda been in a cave for a long time and it's, it's good to get out and do an interview like this. It's been, it's been fun, man. And I'll be happy to come back.

Yeah. Beautiful. I have a big sticker on my computer seat. Ask a question and shut up because I'm known like, , when I start talking, I never shut up. So it's like, I made sure that I, , because this is all about you, all about the guests, so on it, make sure that, , you've got the time and I think you've added a lot of value by sharing with us. So appreciate you buddy. Thank you.

We'll see ya.

Okay.